iOminous v. Yoahtl, Oct 2019
Case
With Oddish presiding, on 10th October 2019, iOminous sued the Yoahtlan Government for allowing Orinnari to run for Council.
Proceedings
iOminous:
I'd like to bring a case against the government for allowing Orinarri to run in the October elections with full knowing that he holds office in another nation (Ashelor) - breaking council law 6.5
SpaceVolcano:
The courts will hear the case of iOminous vs the Yoahtlan Goverment the matter of the violation of council law 6.5 regarding Orinnari holding office in Ashelor. Oddish will be presiding judge.
Oddish:
iOminous can I ask you to make an opening statement for this trial
iOminous:
GDAN will act on my behalf
GDAN:
I'd like to charge the government with either knowingly/unknowingly breaking council law 6.5. For reference ("Council 6.5 Dual citizens who do not have primary residence in Yoahtl (excluding vassals and protectorates) or hold office in any other nation are ineligible to run for Council.")
Oddish:
the case is agasint the gov
not orinari
GDAN:
By allowing Orinnari to continue to run for council even though he is the King of Ashelor. King being the highest office, at the time of this lawsuit beginning, within Ashelor
As a resolution I'd like for Orinnari to be removed from the ballot for the run-off elections, to avoid having to redo the entire election procedure. I'd like no other penalties to befall any party.
bgbba:
I claim not guilty
Feathercrown:
Wait
We have to discuss this as a government
bgbba:
No we don't
I'm the self-appointed lawyer for the government
GDAN:
Oddish, do I present evidence now?
Oddish:
ill assume bg has nothing to say
gdan present
GDAN:
You don't, you only have to submit a plea
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631988087253237760/unknown.png
Orinnari is King in Ashelor, the highest office
From decision D007 - Chancellor of Ashelor:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631989977101631498/unknown.png
This decision of the government of Ashelor shows without doubt that the Monarch- and therefore king- of Ashelor is the most senior figure within the nation. Since Orinnari holds the position of King, it is without a doubt that he holds office within Ashelor.
It is stated in Ashelor's announcements channel that they are independant of Yoahtl
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631990525444227131/unknown.png
It is again restated after an enquiry is made as to their status in relation to Yoahtl
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631990746060423168/unknown.png
I believe that the above evidence demonstrates that council law 6.5 has been broken
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631990994581192742/unknown.png
Orinnari holds office in a fully independant nation and is therefore ineligible to run for council.
I'd like to state that I do not support this law suit to further iOminous' agenda to be installed upon the council as I believe he too may be in violation of a law that would see him eligible, however I have no such proof of this. I'll state publically now that I'll be voting for Aki and F1sh in the run-off elections and that this can be taken as my vote.
Oddish:
i dont think it can be as it isnt an official area to vote
GDAN:
This is not a question of friendship, it is a question of upholding our laws. Orinnari has chosen to start his own independent nation of his own free will, this does not mean he should lose citizenship or be disowned as a friend. Duel citizenship is allowed within Yoahtl and he is a long standing friend, this is no argument to lost a friend over.
But in this case I believe our laws must be upheld, as we cannot disregard our laws every time a friend asks us to.
Oddish:
I call bgbba to begin his defence
bgbba:
The Charter is superior to the laws, and the Council states that all citizens may run for Council.
Since GDAN's claim rests on a council law, this is a misunderstanding. That council law is overridden by the charter. This is how we allowed other edge cases in the past. Citizenship is the ultimate test of being a Yoahtlan. If as GDAN says Orinnari should still be a citizen, then he should still be allowed to run for Council. Additionally, I dispute GDAN's claims in public channels about feeling told to 'shut up'. This is blatantly untrue, and over the past several months we have implemented all his reforms, changes, and reaffirmations of the important laws and procedures. I've come to rely on GDAN as a source of wisdom and legal information, having people like him in Yoahtl is a good thing because it helps keep us on our toes. If there are examples of GDAN actually being told to stop bothering with trying to hold Yoahtlans accountable, then this is a serious problem and should be addressed.
However, in this specific case his argument rests on a misinterpretation of the law that hasn't been used to prevent people from Councillorship in a very long time.
I would argue that the law has been superceded and has (over time) lapsed due to lack of justifiable reason for enforcement.
GDAN:
Oddish, permission to cross examine?
Oddish:
yes
GDAN:
Firstly, I would like to make the point that there is no guarantee within the charter that all citizens may run for council. Neither does the charter state that the council must consist of citizens. Hence the charter does not grant all citizens an unwavering right to run for council regardless of other laws.
bgbba:
Then where does it state you need to be citizen to run for Council?
GDAN:
I'm getting to that
Secondly, the idea that the charter is superior to council/ololtic law stems from a misrepresentation of a piece of case precedent that was never corrected.
I believe that the following:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631998841616596992/unknown.png
Has been slowly misinterpreted over time and the original document forgotten so that the idea that the charter is superior to council/ololtic laws became prevalent although it actually holds no standing.
Thirdly, even if the charter did take precedent it would not matter. Since it is taken from council law 10.2 that you need be a citizen to run for council.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/631963737070239754/631999489930166272/unknown.png
If it were the case that the charter took precedent then this would still be of equal merit to council law 6.5
Since 10.2 is only implying that you need be a citizen to run but 6.5 is stating that you cannot run under certain circumstances it should be taken that the conditions set forth by 6.5 are not optional.
Fourthly, I would like to point out that the only reason the length of time between some of our laws being used and the present is only so long due to the period of time from just before CivEx to after CivEx where the majority of our laws, precedent and even our elections were forgotten and that the extensive length of time is not then a reason to ignore laws that are not contradicted.
Lastly, I'd like to again state that this is not an attack on Orinnari. But is instead an attempt to uphold the integrity of our system of governance, to maintain the laws of our nation and to give a voice to those in our nation who do wish to see our laws upheld even if that means against a longterm friend and trusted Yoahtlan.
Orinnari himself chose to start an independent nation, it was up to no one else to put him into a position where he's in contempt of the law. Therefore, our laws should be respected and if Orinnari does wish to run for council to fix the organisation of our discord then I personally would welcome Ashelor as a non-auto town or a homestead.
Oddish:
bgbba cross examine
bgbba:
I have nothing to present
Oddish:
Right so I'd like to clarify somethigs
This is because Ori is a king in his own nomination of how many people?
That's sorta 2 questions there
iOminous:
Sorry, I dont really understand what you’re asking
Orinnari has primary residence in Ashelor. A nation that he is the King of.
While also running for councillor on the side.
to put it shortly, its dual mandate
something prohibited by the charter rules
GDAN:
Oddish, No matter rhe size of the nation, it is still an inpendent nationo over which Ori rules. Hence he holds the highest office possible within the nation as I showed.
If I today declared my homestead an independent nation, it would be an independent nation.
There is no difference because of it's size. Orinnari chose tp start Ashelor of his own free volition. We shouldn't be creating precedent from this case that it's ok for every citizen to begin their own micro nations and then still participate fully and wholly within yoahtl governance by running for council.
Furthermore, the current size of the nation does not mean it won't grow larger over time.
Orinnari:
Just so you know, I'm officially withdrawing from the runoff election. GDAN seems content with being a pawn in iOminous' play for power. I get that I'm doing exactly what iOminous wants here, I figure he thought he could either legally remove me from the ballot or frustrate me out of running and congrats my dude, you managed it. I wanted to serve Yoahtl, make the proposal system better and more legible... but it seems that people would rather block me from doing so unless I wholesale change the status of a town they don't care one iota about. But eh, this is too much work just to do the work that councillors can't be bothered to do themselves... soooo... good luck.
This was posted nine hours ago in #deleted-channel, I have officially withdrawn from the runoff election because I've felt the hassle around me being elected merely to manage the proposal system to be too much. So unless the purpose of this trial is to doubly remove me from the ballot, you can stop this facade of trying to fairly enforce the law now.
Feathercrown:
The trial is now determining precedent
Oddish:
I'm also trying to understand this whole situation
Because I know this isn't the only case
So Ori is a leader in another nation and ran for council here.
bgbba, was neo.tide running a nation with a seat of power when he ran for elections here ?
bgbba:
Yes
Oddish:
So how was he allowed to run for elections then
bgbba:
Because he was active in Yoahtl and in practice his role of leader in those other towns had grown small
Oddish:
Right so because he didint so much there but did a lot here he was allowed to run
New question.
Isn't fish leader of okato or okashima
bgbba:
Yes
Oddish:
would it not be against our own laws as well to let him run?
as he currently is
or is there something im missing here
Orinnari:
(I think Okashima is a non-auto town)
Oddish:
does that matter?
Orinnari:
If they're non-autonomous, then they're under the jurisdiction of the Yoahtlan government and so have full rights as citizens to run for that government. The same is not true for autonomous towns.
Oddish:
can we confirm if okashima is a non auto
bgbba:
Yes it is
Oddish:
and oris right in his thinking?
bgbba:
That what
Orinnari:
I think Oddish is asking whether I'm right in saying that F1sh is able to run as a candidate because Okashima is non-autonomous
bgbba:
Yes
He is
Oddish:
Judgement for the prosecution
Orinnari should not have run this election due to holding a seat of power within another nation and being currently active in said nation. However as he has already withdrawn from the elections I cant decree to remove him as this case would have wanted.
This is a fault on our part as a Government to not see this sooner. TBH personally I didnt know he had another nation let alone rule in it. As for the rest of the council and government as a whole I dont know.
Im not sure what to do here
Orinnari:
The first thing is that you should decree that NeoTide be immediately removed from office for the same infraction.
Oddish:
he isnt council
I guess that in the case of Neotides situation IF They are active within our nation more then the nation they hold a seat to and have been given express permission to run in elections They can run. If not then well they cant run for elections
he was effectively given permission to run down to the fact he then later gave that power up
nothing was brought up then afaik and we cant remove him from a council when his term is over and will be leaving it
holding general role does not require council
or running for it
GDAN:
No one chose to sue Neo or the gov at the time so it was never an issue. I assume if someone had chosen to do so Neo would've just given his position in Okashima up as at the time Okashima was largely inactive.
Oddish:
That would have been the case
bgbba:
Yes it would have
And he did as soon as f1sh returned
GDAN:
From now on I will be bringing to court any case where our laws are being infracted so as to either set new precedent or to uphold the law. Just because a law was ignored in the past/no one bothered with sueing over it doesn't mean it shouldn't continue to exist.
Instead of just creating an arguement in another channel over the law being broken I'll be bringing cases straight to the courthouse in the future.
Oddish:
This case will serve as a precedent for future issues. If an injunction is filed against somebody’s eligibility for council They will be investigated and thus removed from the pool if found in breach of our laws
people can contest somebody’s eligibility on the grounds of citizenship I will extend this to foreign offices and non-primary residency for dual citizens