Aki v. Sventhar, Oct 2019
Case
With Oddish presiding, on 1st October 2019, Aki charged Sventhar with Harassment. Sventhar was found guilty of Harassment and was ordered to apologise to his victims. On appeal, Sventhar was additionally sentenced to a 6 week period of silence.
Proceedings
Aki:
i would like to open up a lawsuit against Sventhar for harassment and intent to continue to harass
SpaceVolcano:
The courts will hear the case of Aki vs Sventhar in the matter of harrassment. The matter of intent to continue will not be heard as proving intent to continue is impossible to prove since we can't read minds and predict future issues. Oddish will be presiding as judge.
Oddish:
OK Court will now be in session.
Aki you have the floor for an opening statement.
Aki:
Every Yoahtlan has the right to be free from harassment, and I believe that many of us, including myself, have not been free from harassment. There has been a targeted and continuous harassment campaign from Sventhar that has made most conversations devolve into ad hominim attacks and a source of stress for everyone in the nation. I don’t want to create a safe space where no one can drop hot takes or say spicy opinions. I also don’t want the dissolution of the freedom of speech. What I want is a line in the sand to be drawn that continuously and repetitively attacking a few individuals is going to go unpunished. Thank you.
Oddish:
anything else to add?
Aki:
Yes, I also would like to say that wanting a discord channel shut down or pushing a certain policy position is NOT a good reason to harass or target people
Oddish:
okay
Sventhar I would like to call you to the stand to make your plea in regard to the prosecution
Sventhar:
The defense pleads guilty to shit-posting, trolling, and baiting.
Aki:
The charge of harassment?
Or are you including that in the trolling, baiting and shitposting
Sventhar:
I plead not guilty to the charge of harassment.
Oddish:
ok. to plead guilty to shitposting trolling and enacting in baitng but not guilty to harassment
Sventhar:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629007957975367690/unknown.png
Yes
The following is an example of a state law dealing with harassment:
"S 240.25 Harassment in the first degree.
A person is guilty of harassment in the first degree when he or she intentionally and repeatedly harasses another person by following such person in or about a public place or places or by engaging in a course of conduct or by repeatedly committing acts which places such person in reasonable fear of physical injury. This section shall not apply to activities regulated by the national labor relations act, as amended, the railway labor act, as amended, or the federal employment labor management act, as amended.
Oddish:
sven simmer down for a mo
Aki as the defendant is pleading not guilty to the charges of harassment, I call you now to present evidence of the defendant doing this
and testimonies
Aki:
First, I would like to mention that I was followed from the discord into DM’s
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629008770797797376/image0.jpg
During the whole “should pornographic images be banned”
Sven targeting orinnari
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629009096904802307/image0.jpg
Oddish:
do you have anything to support the transiton to dms from the discord
Aki:
Yes I can let me get that after I post the other screenshots
Him targeting Orin again
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629009419560288257/image0.jpg
Orin and myself this time
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629009790105944064/image0.jpg
Sven accusing me of treason
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629009953524547584/image0.jpg
Sventhar joyous over causing such a problem he got blocked
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629010197352022037/image0.jpg
After an argument in politics irl
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629010280487190578/image0.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629010366893916181/image0.jpg
Me trying to express he should get help in good faith
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629010516290830371/image0.jpg
And Bg saying we shouldn’t engage and sventhar sarcastic response
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629010634427727891/image0.jpg
Him targeting Orin again and insulting him
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629010756255350797/image0.jpg
Oddish:
Aki do you ahve anything else to add to your case?
Aki:
I wanted to post proof of the connection from DMs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629012307757891614/image0.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629012307757891615/image1.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629012308487569429/image2.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629012308487569430/image3.png
As you can notice, I was frustrated over porn being posted and as you can see, not only was sventhar the primary troll in this instance but the dates are also the same time
Oddish:
after reading through this evidence i can say that much of this isnt so much of harassment but more of indirect poking and memeing. the comments about orinari could be viewed as a basic observation given in a sarcastic manner or degrading. But nothing close to genuine repeated and personal attacks on a person.
I do have more to say but will withhold till im prepared to make a decision
TLDR: photos given arent strictly harassment, buy are demeaning in nature.
Aki:
May I respond?
Oddish:
Aki i will await your witness testimonies
out of curiosity. how many do you have
Aki:
Depends on 2 peoples responses
8. 5 people said they would want to but fear retribution for speaking out. They will remain unnamed your honor
Oddish:
also after speaking to the high [justice] about definitions harrassment in the charter is basically "behavior purposefully and hurtfully directed at someone", especially if it causes them personal discomfort or causes them to consider leaving Yoahtl
as per the evidence given i can see comments that could be considered purposefully and hurtfully directed
Aki:
Can it also be considered people have left yoahtl over purposeful and hurtful comments in the past
Oddish:
i recall the orinari and tigen
Aki:
Thank you your honor
I would like to enter additional evidence
this as a reply to me asking orin to be a witness
and sventhars response
Where he declared that his "work is complete" in draining orin and getting him to feel defeated
Oddish:
ok to clarify some things. proving thins is alwasy difficult if theres room for error or need for clarification
after being told our clarification of harassment is different its changed some things
ill take evidence and have not said anything about not hearing things through
if i wasnt hearing shit through this case would be over much faster
but i want this solved as much as anyy of us do so well take the time to look at what is given
also on a more personal note. taking a moment to make a statement is not trading a day for being assblased. being in this chat all day to see the case through would be a btter representation of that
Aki:
An additional piece of evidence
Oddish:
Sventhar do you have any evidence to support your defence
Sventhar:
What exactly am I defending right now?
I thought this trial was about ‘drawing a line in the sand’
Oddish:
the claims of harassment any evidence you deem worthy of this case present it
Sventhar:
Also, is Aki prosecuting me on Orin’s behalf?
Like what am I defending?
Oddish:
aki is the presecution
ori was evidence
Sventhar:
Has Aki ever used the ‘Block’ feature on me? And if so, why did Aki ‘unblock’ me?
If Orin is upset about something, I think it would be better to have a separate trial for a separate incident.
Or are we just lumping all of the incidents of anytime I ever said something that hurt someone’s feelings?
Feathercrown:
Objection Your Honor, the trial is about Sventhar's attempts at harrassment not at Aki's recieving them so blocking is irrelevant
Sventhar:
I would like a very clear example of something that I can defend.
I have already pleaded not guilty to harassment.
Oddish:
yes but now you have to present evidnce that supports that claim
Sventhar:
At the beginning of the trial, I defined harassment.
Oddish:
thats isnt how we define it
Sventhar:
Then could the court please define harassment for me?
Oddish:
we are using our charter and our laws
harrassment in the charter is basically "behavior purposefully and hurtfully directed at someone", especially if it causes them personal discomfort or causes them to consider leaving Yoahtl
i have alreay stated that
Sventhar:
If amendments to the charter have been made to adjust the definition of harassment and the citizens have not voted on this definition, then...
At the start of the trial was harassment clearly defined in the charter?
Oddish:
that isnt how it works
Sventhar:
Your honor could I get a simple yes or no answer?
At the start of the trial was harassment clearly defined in the charter?
Oddish:
please present your evidence that supports your plea of not guilty in reguards to the evidece the proscecutions evidence
Sventhar:
The defense rests.
Oddish:
you have nothing to present?
Sventhar:
Please can I have a screenshot of where in the charter is the definition of harassment?
Oddish:
id like to bring in freather to help clarify this
he has it
if you want the high justice then i can call him
Sventhar:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629095207731724308/image0.png
Harassment isn’t specifically defined and therefore reverts to the English language definition.
There was never intent to harass or harassment, I was memeing.
I never threatened anyone.
I never harmed anyone.
I never intimidated anyone with violence.
Oddish:
you dont have to o be classed as harsassing
Sventhar:
There is no proof of any harassment other than hurt feelings.
Feathercrown:
The charter and laws are often intentionally vague to prevent BS bypassing like what's happening here. The definition of harassment isn't defined specifically because people will try to do this and e-lawyer their way out of a harassment charge. If you really want a definition of harassment, where's the definition of literally any other non-invented word in the charter?
Regardless, if you really want evidence that harassment includes non-threats, the appeal for the court case WackyAki v. Meat312 with Councillor Klasikrok on [2nd December 2017] states that "WackyAki, I believe that you have gone far enough in this matter. Any further harassment of meat on this issue will be considered actual harassment." This statement is in regards to Aki giving "a long ass speech about how political corruption and bribery for votes corrupts the nation", was made by the highest legal judicial authority at the time (the Alcuahtl), and went uncontested. Sventhar, not only have you done this exact thing with Lukasmaps if I remember correctly, but this usage by the Alcuahtl Bgbba also means that the Yoahtlan definition of harassment is clearly not based on threats, so it's not identical to the IRL definition. The definition of harassment is basically "behavior purposefully and hurtfully directed at someone", especially if it causes them personal discomfort or causes them to consider leaving Yoahtl. Not only has your behavior caused someone who I am under oath to keep anonymous to consider leaving Yoahtl as a whole, but in the cases provided as evidence it is clearly directed at Aki with the intent to cause them emotional distress. Additionally as Oddish stated this aligns with the IRL definition of harassment as it is degrading.
And no, "memeing" is not a valid defense. This is supported by the court precedent that "Meming is not an excuse[...] if both parties aren't in on the meme"
Sventhar:
This is a game, and if people didn't want to see what I had to say, all they had to do was it the block button on my name, Its not as though I was stalking and forcing my self on anybody. If people with disagreements to my opinion have hurt feeling, then they just have to block me since we are in game or on discord. Still no harm, still no threats. I exercised my freedom of speech and apparently people are lacking confidence to counter my memes. Secondly after this is done I will be sueing for impeachment of the High Justice for allowing this trial into the courts. Since this is a one sided trial and an opinionated decision on whether I was memeing or harassing since there is no hard evidence other than my word, and clearly the citizenry has a massive hate-boner for memes, opinions that disagree with theirs, and free speech. So Oddish you can go ahead and close this trial and rule based upon the mob rule of the current government and weak minded individuals.
This is all, you have my word that I was not harassing. I still plead not guilty.
Oddish:
Aki your crossexamination of evidence begins
Aki:
First, do you recognize that even memes can upset or even harass people after anpoint
Sventhar:
No they’re memes, and they’re supposed to be funny.
Maybe my memes are too esoteric.
Aki:
Can you define esoteric
Feathercrown:
Objection, memeing is not a valid defense under council precedent
Sventhar:
Esoteric - intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.
Aki:
Do you also not post memes under the goal of a reaction?
Sventhar:
I post memes for the reaction of laughter. The goal of a meme is laughter and thought provoking.
Are we defining memes right now?
Do I actually have to define memes for you?
Aki:
I don’t seek to do so
Sventhar:
You wanted to ‘draw a line in the sand’
Are we any closer to that?
Oddish:
yes
Aki:
You claimed that the ololtic had a hate boner for memes, are you saying that no other memes have been posted by the ololtic
Sventhar:
The ololtic posted self- loathing memes.
Therefore they hate memes and post them in a post-ironic way.
Basically we’re shitposting in the trial channel right now.
Aki:
Was this a meme?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629103179572838400/image0.jpg
Sventhar:
Literally it says ‘I’m always memeing’
This only supports my case
My existence is a meme
And even BG comes in here and tells me to ‘suck it’
That’s the definition of harassment.
Aki:
Is this “Esoteric”
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629103676115648512/image0.jpg
Sventhar:
How many NPC memes has everyone else posted.
If harrasment is going to be defined as posting in discord, we should propse to spoiler everything anyone types and but trigger warnings on everyones name
Oddish:
Sventhar your chance to cross examine evidence
Sventhar:
Aki, do you have the ability to read minds?
Aki:
I’m legally not allowed to answer that
Sventhar:
So you neither deny nor confirm that you have the ability to read minds. Therefore proving harassment vs. memery is impossible.
Did I ever physically threaten or harm you?
This question is for Aki.
Did I ever physically threaten or harm you or anyone else?
Aki:
Intent isn’t relevant to this case
Sventhar:
So if intent isn’t relevant, then the evidence that you’ve posted is irrelevant.
Aki:
The court recognized the evidence
Oddish:
its entirely relevent
Sventhar:
How can you prove harassment without intent?
Oddish:
its presents evidence to harassment reguardless of intent or meme. its the words given that have offended and hurt others.
Sventhar:
Did I ever physically threaten or harm you?
Aki:
The court doesn’t recognize intent as an argument
Also threats aren’t part of the definition
Sventhar:
So any action I do can be considered harassment?
Aki:
Sure, it might be wrong, but you can consider it
Sventhar:
So this whole trial is a meme?
Aki:
No
[...etc, continues along this same vein; masochists can read more here:
https://discord.com/channels/278045721742147586/348687557455904778/628710244847190056]
Oddish:
as sventhar has pleaded guilty to meming, shitposting and baiting.
Given that baiting is intent to get a response and continue to harass people. and those actions have lead to people feeling uncomfortable the courts will find you guilty of harassment.
From this I will now be ruling a 'line in the sand' continued 'memeing' 'baiting' and 'shitposting' that cause updset to others and lead to them feeling uncomfortable or unhappy being in our community will lead to a warning placed upon the person or persons who are causing said harm. Reguardless of intent or its just a game bro actions taken can and will hurt others. Failure to understand this will result in said warning given. First warning will result in an apology to be made by the harassing party. Second warning will result in another apology and given the word that the next time this occurs they are to be removed from the discord as they clearly are only here to cause harm to others.
Additionally. Sventhar this will regard to your first warning. The courts would like to ask you to make an apology to Wakiaky, Orinari and others who have been hurt by your actions.
Appeal
SpaceVolcano:
The court will grant the appeal in the matter Aki vs Sventhar ruled upon by presiding judge Oddish.
As to make this trial expedient the court will be submitting the majority of statements. Simply for record and to uphold procedure.
The reiteration of the complaint as submitted by Sventhar
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629139701525381121/unknown.png
Additional evidence for the appeal as submitted by Grimm
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629139954731188224/unknown.png
Further Evidence as submitted by JustMatter
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348687557455904778/629140305144315954/unknown.png
The court would like to call upon bgbba as an expert witness to make a statement on how the Nation has handled similar situations to the issue of harrassment in the past.
bgbba:
I'll start off by stating that harassment has been kept deliberately vague as a way to accommodate the fact we can't prove intent. It's hard because the court can't pre-emptively attack the issue of harassment, so by the time that harassment actually causes somebody to leave Yoahtl or disengage from the community often it's too late.
So there's this historical precedent of the Alcuahtl, Chieftain, or whoever being able to say 'alright calm down this is far enough you're starting to hurt people' and normally people just handle that and accept that they're starting to damage community relations and their relationships with others in this community.
The problem has always come in when people just straight up refuse to take the hint and see people telling them that they're damaging others as some sort of imposition on themselves. Re: WackyAki vs Meat312, which was in large part precipitated because WackyAki refused to take the hint and instead kept pressing on meat even when the government had made it clear we were going to stop the behavior he was going after meat for.
The fundamental question at stake here is what constitutes community in Yoahtl. Is our community simply a platform for people’s individual interests regardless of their impact on others? Or is it an organism unto itself, formed as a series of infinite compromises between all the individuals?
What makes Yoahtl unique is that unlike any other civ town we are explicitly a community rather than just an organization. The government of Yoahtl and all its institutions are simply extra, created as a means of better facilitating the formation of a functional community. Yoahtl, in short, is a family. A big messy one but a family nonetheless. This ‘collective of individuals’ mentality that pervades civ And has since day one is anathema to Yoahtl. At every juncture, we have determined that as soon as an individual stops treating us as a community and starts treating us as simply a platform for their individual interests we have the right to take away their ability to use us as a platform for their individual interests at the expense of everybody else, Sventhar has run up against this distinction
In short: Sventhar has a right to be in this community but not at the expense of others. His behavior badly damaged relations between the government and the people, and has continued the campaign of division and unneeded arguments in a manner similar to Isit or Fishywa or Qua or ZachAttack. Civ is littered with examples of former Yoahtlans who couldn’t realize the difference between a platform and a community and suffered the consequences. In summation, we absolutely have the right to start being harder on people for exploiting us and using Yoahtl as a platform. You don’t shit where you eat and if you want to live in a sewer we don’t need to turn a blind eye.
Testimony given, we are a community not a platform, if you can’t handle that then we don’t need to let you have full perms in Discord
Oh yeah as an addendum: Yoahtl is the only town, group, or nation in civ with a ‘closed’ discord policy that doesn’t have the same ingame. We have made it very clear from day one when Lieb and I made this discord that this discord was meant to facilitate the ingame community, not the other way around. This discord is a tool for us to do things in Minecraft, it’s why Zach got banned for shilling other games, it’s why people who lurk in every discord obsessively are banned on sight like Yellofishy and Seiftfizz, it’s why people who lurk and spy like TVman aren’t in here. This discord is one of the most secure and exclusive. Again, it’s a community facilitation tool not a platform. You have free speech ingame, if you need to lurk discord on your phone all day, go do it elsewhere because it’s not needed for community facilitation.
SpaceVolcano:
Thank you Bgbba,
The court would like to call upon NeoTide as an expert witness to make a statement on Discord Moderation, and how moderation applies to harassment and irreverent and irrelevant discussion. You have 72hours to make your statement, please take as much time as you need of the 72 hours, the court proceeding will not continue until you close your statement.
NeoTide:
The effects of rampant harassment, like in the case of Sventhar's, are as you all know quite damning. Problems have previously arisen with similar circumstances which proved to be a severe impediment and betrayal of what Yoahtl aspires to be.
In previous outbursts of Sventhar's, the Councilors' abilities to halt conversation and "censor" the defendant undeniably saved the greater Yoahtl community from similar losses. No matter the circumstances of the defendant, his actions are disruptive and qualify for intervention from those with applicable perms.
The specific tools employed which are being advocated for continued use involve limiting the ability to:
- send messages - upload images - preview linked images - react to posts
SpaceVolcano:
The court would like to call Feathercrown as an expert witness on the Goverment's excutive powers and how it particularly applies managing citizens and handling people who cause disruptions. You have 72 hours to make your statment, and the court proceeding will not continue until you close your statement.
Feathercrown:
The Yoahtlan government has always had the authority to do pretty much whatever it has to in the Discord. This Discord was created as a place for people to contribute usefully to ingame projects, not as a place for metagame shittery. As such, any significant, repeated disruptions will not be tolerated. Anything that goes beyond a sinple disruption-- eg. harassment-- can and will be met with a kick/ban from the server, as has been done many times before. This Discord is a curated space, not a free-for-all.
As for how it relates to executive powers, it's the government's job to enforce the laws, and the laws say no harassment. In case it was unclear, the laws do not say freedom to post anything, in the Discord or otherwise. As in real life, freedom of speech does not extend to every possible form of speech, and it's the government's job to enforce the areas where it does not apply.
SpaceVolcano:
Thank you feather,
The courts would now like to call on LukasMaps to make to a statement on freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and freedom from harrasment and how the goverment has handled these issues.
LukasMaps:
I abstain from making a statement as the only sentiment I wish to express at this time is that I believe this trial should be settled in an expedient manner so as to settle the question of what counts as harassment, seeing as though the issue has again surfaced in the context of the electoral process.
SpaceVolcano:
Thank you Lukas
The court would like to call on Oddish to make a statement about his ruling and why
He felt it was appealed
How the courts may possibly have the best outcome in future trials by using the current laws and precedents we have in place.
Oddish:
The ruling that was made used both the guilty plea and non guilty plea in its finalisation. Taking the admission to certain acts and finding the defence lacking, my decision came to guilty of all charges. There was also a logical link between 'baiting' and the defences focus of asking where intent was. By acknowledging that 'baiting' is intent to gain a reaction and then target players in certain ways that make them uncomfortable its easy enough to see that' baiting' shows intent to harass. As the plea for 'baiting' and 'trolling' was guilty, the defendant was found guilty of harassment as well.
This may have not been made clear enough in my precedent and comments, but the idea was to find a way that the plaintiffs request of 'drawing a line in the sand' could be achieved while still allowing people to express themselves. This is how I came up with the warning system. As for the fact it was appealed when the actual defendant 'sventhar' wanted the case over and done with, I dont know. But it will give us an opportunity to set things not in sand but stone and from this be able to help keep people safe and comfortable in our community. So I am in a way glad this has happened.
As for how the courts can achieve the best outcome I believe having some rough definition of harassment where it states more of the discomfort it can cause and not how to do it, it will allow people to remain confident in the courts. Yes by not listing things that count as harassment people will complain about not knowing, thats why we give warnings, that's why we have the vague ideas. If a person is upset with you contacting them in a certain way or with certain words or whatever they should have a way to be able to sue and try to protect themselves.
Forcing definitions will only lead to people finding new ways to go round the law, or to layer their way to riches by suing everyone. Left open to interpretation it allows the courts to look at a case and its evidence and judge with more flexibility to help protect the people. Setting precedents specific to things will only take more time when something new arises. Having them vague helps save time for all parties.
SpaceVolcano:
Thank you Oddish. The courts now have collected all the evidence required.
The appellate ruling:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e_0kW2gW5NVHTLcWNlXimGa0arDqOU2d7bH2yAuAot8
TL:DR Don't be a dick guys. Be reasonable, be courteous, be respectful. Our discord is a privilege. Keep it fun, and memes are more fun if everyone is in on them. Trial channel is reopened.